I have to admit, I was a bit snarky at first, but I thought better of it. Casey came at this from a position of kindness, and her entire motivation was to spread the truth as she saw fit. I am posting the entire conversation below, as I feel it was interesting and quite a good look inside the mind of someone who could be called a "fundamentalist", as well as a look at how one of these conversations could actually be had without resorting to being a complete jerk. :)
THAT said, I doubt anyone changed anyone else's mind.
Here you go, in lots of quoting:
Casey said...
I understand your theory that athiesm is not a religion, and that you simply do not believe in God. But I disagree. I know from the depth of my soul that God exists and that Jesus exists as a savior for all who call upon him.
There is not just proof in the holy bible, which was written by God through man, but there is proof all around you. Who do you think created this Earth? Who created the land and the waters, Night and Day?
Most athiest believe in the Big Bang theory, where something happened in space and a tiny spec of dirt exploded and created the universe.
Atheism does require some faith. You must have a theory of why you exsist, and how you came to be from the beginnings of time. That is Faith, is it not?
But you see, I believe that God created the Earth about 6,000 years ago. And 4,000 years ago there was a flood. There is scientific proof that god exists and that God flooded the Earth nearly 4,000 years ago, during Noah's time.
God loves all people. We are his creation.
I personnally know a grown man, probably about 45 years of age who just gave his life to Jesus. He was an atheist. He didn't believe in God, but rather that there was an inner strive of human nature to want to become a better people. He ignored the facts of creation. Then one day he was confused. His whole fammily grew up loving God. His wife loves God, all his kids and their husbands and even his grandchildren LOVE GOD. And this destroyed his atheism. He realized that it is a relationship with God that he does not have. He felt a need and desire to be in the hands of love and forgiveness. He got saved and is living happily in the light of the lord with no doubts or regets. He glows with joy. It is an experience one must find by themselves. God may ask for your heart, but it is up to you to give it. You are Promised eternal life either way you choose. I've chosen eternal riches in heaven, with my savior who has loved me even through my mistakes. He is always there to pull me through.
There is proof that God exists. THrough my testimony, through Bob's testimony, through the living word of God - The Holy Bible, through creation, with scientific evidence of a common creator, with scientific evidence of a flood 4,000 years ago - which explains the Grand Canyon, Niagra falls and closed/preserved clams on mountain peaks and much more.
God is there, and you are questioning it yourself. Why else would you post a page on your blog, asking for someone to prove his existance?
I would love to continue proving God's existance, power and glory.
I hope you take God's creation seriously and realize his love for you.
His love is warm and comforting. He is there to comfort you, heal you through anything.
I hope you have read and seriously considered God's love for you.
No one is perfect, and no man will ever be perfect. Christians are no better than anyone else with mistakes. The only difference is we are covered with forgiveness.
Thanks for listening and I hope I have answered your questioning spirit.
* Your Friend *
11:13 AM
jeremy said...
Wow, Casey.
I think you missed my point entirely.
Let's get a few things clear:
1: I don't NEED a reason for why I'm around, or why the universe is around. It's here, and we're here. We're these tiny little chemical accidents sitting on a planet orbiting a relatively normal star which orbits around a relatively normal galaxy which is pretty much indistinguishable from the rest of the galaxies built like it in a universe that's BILLIONS of years old. I'm pretty psyched that I get to exist and see this stuff, personally. I could care less if there's a "reason" for it all to exist.
2: I know enough about how physics actually WORKS and have done enough research of data that's actually....
you know what?
screw this. You're not going to listen to logic. Your book, as written by men (or their ghost), tells you all you need to know. a bazillion other blogs have this fight every day. I'm not trying to convince you of anything- I was just trying to express my point of view to a friend.
Enjoy your faith.
11:20 AM
Casey said...
You know enough about how physics actually WORK and have done enough research of data that's actually....What????
I am ready to listen. But, if you do not want to hear my opinion I will quit responding.
Just tell me.
I was just trying to show you a different opinion, My opinion. You said " Tell you what - you bring me proof that a god exists, and I'll be the first to line up and pledge my soul or whatever." So I took it as an oppourtunity to open myself up to you, and try to share my faith.
And thanks, I DO enjoy my Faith.
10:48 AM
jeremy said...
I appreciate your candidness and politeness, and I apologize for my snippiness (if that's a word - if it's not, you know what I meant anyway I think :)).
To be blunt, you didn't bring me proof of anything.
Part by part -
"There is not just proof in the holy bible, which was written by God through man, but there is proof all around you. Who do you think created this Earth? Who created the land and the waters, Night and Day?"
I don't think anyone did it. I have yet to see evidence of creation by an intelligent force or deity beyond the evidence provided by books which are of, at best, dubious translations and, at worst, outright fairy tales.
"Most athiest believe in the Big Bang theory, where something happened in space and a tiny spec of dirt exploded and created the universe."
I can't speak of MOST atheists, because I'm only one and we're not some monolithic structure that has doctrine and whatnot... :)
BUT as for me, I think that the big bang theory is about as close as we've gotten to what really happened at the start of this universe's timeline. THAT SAID, the beauty of science is that there could be a better explanation in the wings, waiting for evidence and proof. We DO have evidence that fits absolutely perfectly with the big bang theory at this time though - some amazing, amazing work with the background radiation of the universe, for example.
"Atheism does require some faith."
No, it does not. :) See, this is where we trip up a bit. It's not about faith - it's about a LACK of faith. For example, you don't have faith that yellow unicorns run around Antarctica, do you? No, you're pretty certain that the unicorns aren't prancing around down there because (a) no one has seen them (b) the climate is really unsuited to unicorns and (c) yellow? Really? THAT said, if someone discovered the yellow unicorns and perhaps brought back some good proof, you'd be able to start believing in them. And I would imagine that "good proof" would go beyond a couple of books, for you. It would likely include a specimen or 3, video, and maybe some research into how they survive down there. Now, take out "yellow unicorns" and substitute "god" or any other deity.
Put another way - do you have faith that Zeuss isn't real? Nah, you KNOW he isn't. Same deal here.
"You must have a theory of why you exsist, and how you came to be from the beginnings of time. That is Faith, is it not?"
Nope. No theory about "why". In fact, the "why" part of existence is simple to me- I exist because my parents had me. I'm thrilled to be here and I hope that my life brings some good into this world, and I try my hardest to be a nice person to everyone possible and raise kids that can continue that.
"But you see, I believe that God created the Earth about 6,000 years ago. And 4,000 years ago there was a flood. There is scientific proof that god exists and that God flooded the Earth nearly 4,000 years ago, during Noah's time. "
No, there isn't scientific proof that god exists. Seriously. If there was, scientists would be writing paper after paper showing proofs and trying to break each others' proofs. If a scientist could come up with a proof that god exists, he or she would be ridiculously wealthy. We're talking game-changing information here that blows things like relativity and such out of the water.
Look, 4000 years ago there WAS LIKELY a big flood. Or 10. The story of the flood originated in an area of the world that was given to flooding, and the floods would often be devastating. Covering the whole world? Causing a canyon? Implausible at best - especially since we can show with independently verified geological evidence all over the place that, for example, the grand canyon was created by natural erosion over the course of a few million years. THAT said, your book is all you need to refute this.
As to the rest of your comment -
Your anecdote about the loving man who converted is nice and all, but it doesn't move me. :) Sorry. I would need real proof in the existence of a god in order to actually believe in one.
Thank you for your kind words and comments regardless, and I appreciate the spirit in which they are intended.
Would you mind terribly if I posted this conversation as an entry on my front page?
11:06 AM
Casey said...
Jeremy, I greatly accept your apology. I must admit I was really stunned with the way you wrote.
I appreciate your change of words and kindness in your second entry.
I may not be able to convince you about God and his creation, but maybe if you want to hear about REAL scientific evidence you will watch a video by a real scientist/doctor. His name is Dr. Kent Hovind. He has videos that can be found on the internet or probably in christian book stores. A website I have found is
http:// freehovind com/watch
He has Seven different videos, explaining scientific facts proving God's creation. The videos are:
Seminars
1The Age of the Earth
2The Garden of Eden
3Dinosaurs and the Bible
4Lies in the Textbooks
5The Dangers of Evolution
6The Hovind Theory
7Questions and Answers
Check it out, please. Maybe it will be scientific information that helps.
If you want to post this on your front page, I don't mind. I hope that it will help others think, especially about creation.
I believe that Creation is the biggest foundation for our existence, and our foundation of Faith.
Thanks for listening.
* your friend *
11:12 AM
jeremy said...
Hi Casey -
You can't put science and Hovind in the same page. They're fundamentally incompatible words.
I've watched his videos - and here's the thing:
You have to accept HIS basis in order to believe what the videos say, and Hovind's basis is literally incompatible with every scientifically established (and peer-reviewed) fact regarding the growth of this planet.
Look, if he was actually right, scientists would be all over the peer-reviewed journals with proofs. Scientists LOVE to take each other on, and quite often do. They look constantly for errors in each others' works, and scrutinize and tear apart submissions which don't work. Hell, Einstein isn't even safe! Hawking's theories come under fire on a constant basis, and that's the way it SHOULD be. Something that shook the core of evolution to the bone, something which shakes up the scientific establishment would be wecomed with open arms if it could be proven. A scientist would become very, very rich very, very quickly if he or she could pull it off. :)
Ken Hovind won't submit to scientific review processes because he KNOWS it's not science. He can call it science all he wants - but until he shows proofs in a physical manner that actually WORKS in terms of being reviewable, his "science" isn't SCIENCE.
I have watched a few of his videos - and I have to say I think he is a compelling speaker, but again, his logic is flawed because he mixes things which can be proven (evolution, for example, undergoes nearly constant proofing and revision) in with things that can't be proven objectively (biblical proofs just don't hold up to objective scrutiny - they're held to a different standard, which eliminates their ability to be used in science).
He's an interesting preacher, but using his ideas as a basis for truth is a dangerous idea. It leads down a very slippery slope.
I respect your choice to just have faith in these matters and reject logic which is incompatible with your worldview, but I also hope that you'll one day actually sit down with an objective eye to look at these beliefs of yours and try to maybe gather a better understanding of where the words really come from.
Good luck in life!
11:43 AM
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